Talk:Machismo

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Pronunciation

I personally pronounce machismo as "makismo" in English, though I say macho as "matsho". And I think machismo is not necessarily always as negative towards women's role in society as machista. For example, I suspect that Arnold Schwarzenegger might be described as having machismo, while he would say politically he believed in equal rights for women. --Henrygb 14:25, 8 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Sorry, Henry, but there is no etymological backup for the Italian pronunciation. Yes, some people say "makismo", but thinking it Italian does not make it so.

BrendanH 13:05, Apr 16, 2004 (UTC)

Makismo is the pronunciation given in my dictionary. Martin Hogbin (talk) 10:42, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

Your dictionary is probably not Webster's then. I see this tendency of pronouncing it as "makismo" showing up more conspicuosly with the Brits. It's wrong, nevertheless. afc (talk) 18:38, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

"It's wrong" is a slightly odd way of treating pronunciation, if it's in use (as it is in British English), it is worth noting. Do not be so dismissive about usage in the future. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.179.246.57 (talk) 05:05, 24 July 2016 (UTC)

The letters “ch” in Spanish is ONE LETTER. Along with ll and ñ, it’s why the Spanish alphabet has 29 letters. Macho is a 4 letter Spanish word. Pronouncing it “mackismo” is arrant nonsense.98.183.25.236 (talk) 02:51, 10 April 2022 (UTC)

Delete

I removed the following added by an anon IP:

P.S. Many historians believe that Spain's "machismo" culture has its origins in the Middle East and that it came to Spain when the Moors invaded. It was subsequently introduced to Latin America by the conquistadores.

BCorr|Брайен 16:37, 21 Sep 2004 (UTC)

talk show

On Dr. Laura Bozzo's talk show it is important to point out that most male guest are usually Mexican or Central American because in many South American countries machismo is not part of their culture and it is uncommon and very frowned upon. Also there are very few women in Mexican government which is an another form of machismo

what?

. In Mexico, many men consider it an honor to be called a machista.

this is not true

I don't know about Mexico but in European Spanish society some (mostly uneducated) men (and some women maybe too) seem to equate being male to machismo. In Spanish there's sometimes etymological confussion about that and also some of reactive need to reafirm old-fashioned privileges by some.Such reactionary people naturally are proud of being machistas, even if they may hide it because of social acceptance. In some cases, I guess they just don't feel the need to hide their attitude.

While women can also be machistas (submissive or traditionalist) they almost never consider themselves to be it. --Sugaar 05:11, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

“Macho” and “machista” do have the same etymological origin, but they have very different meanings. “Macho” means simply virile, while “machista” means that supports men’s dominance on women. Being based solely on gender, it is equivalent to racism, fascism, chauvinism or any superiority believe against others.

These two adjectives can be applied to women, reflecting even more their difference in sense: A virile woman is deprecatingly called “marimacho” never “machista”, usually they are feminists. On the other hand, women that support men’s dominance (machistas) are usually feminine and are not feminists. Nonetheless, there are millions of virile men and feminine women that support women’s rights.

Feminism, wanting women equality, is thus opposed to machismo. However, those who, in the name of feminism, oppose to virile men or feminine women regardless of their values, are as ignorant and immoral as the machistas. IGomezLeal (talk) 09:47, 15 October 2022 (UTC)

Machismo

The article states, "Machistas believe that women were created to stay home and be mothers and wives. Thus, most machistas believe firmly in the superiority of men over women." As has been stated, there is no logical connection between women staying at home and being inferior.

I have personally known hundreds of Latin people, and none have fit the perjorative definition of "machismo". While that's an unscientific sampling, my hunch is that the misogynistic connotation is more myth than fact.

I agree, no one individual can fulfil all the characteristics associated with Machismo as it is essentialist and potentially creates the framework to negatively stereotype Latino people. I vote for a reconstruction of the article in order to detail the historical connotations of Machismo, as well as include the positive characteristics of Machismo as discussed in academic literature24.141.113.105 (talk) 02:00, 25 October 2012 (UTC)

Please sign your posts on talk pages per Wikipedia:Sign your posts on talk pages. Thanks! Hyacinth 11:23, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

There are absolutely no positive characteristics of “machismo”. Maybe you are mistaken the meaning of “macho” and “machista”. A man can be proud of being virile (“macho”), but he shouldn’t be proud of believing that men should dominate women (“machista”). Being these concepts clear, there will be no mistake in what they actually are proud of. That does not erase, in any country, the ostracism generated by the lack of education and infrastructure. It has nothing to do with culture or race, these are two words that have equivalents in other languages and regard any country in the world. IGomezLeal (talk) 10:09, 15 October 2022 (UTC)

Original Research about wife beating and submission

I have removed this original research about wife beating and submission to this page:

Many machistas also believe it is their right as men to seek extramarital relationships, although women are to remain faithful. Machistas believe that women were created to stay home and be mothers and wives. Thus, most machistas believe firmly in the superiority of men over women.

Some acts of domestic violence against women have been committed by men who consider themselves superior to women, whereby the doctrine of machista such violence may often be called appropriate or justified.

These claims are pejorative and inflammatory, and as such need to have references to ensure verifiability.

Nova SS 04:52, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

These claims form part of the definition of “machismo” in Spanish: dominance of men over women. There are degrees of machismo, not every machista beats his wife or is unfaithful, as not all racists pass to a physical act, but any dominance is aggressive, even if it is only psychological. Submissive women are not necessarily happy. Again I insist in the misunderstanding with “macho” that means only virile. A heroe, a soldier, an athlete can be cheered “macho” by the crowd but never “machista”. Virility is a virtue, while aggressiveness to the weak is not. IGomezLeal (talk) 10:26, 15 October 2022 (UTC)

machistas

Certainly in Spain "machista" is regarded as having negative connotations i.e. some people would admit - in front of friends - to being racist but never machista. On the other hand, some (many?) mothers actively encourage their sons to feel themselves superior to their female siblings, and thus women in general, by pampering them and excusing them from daily household chores, etc. Likewise, it is evident that any society which does not actively promote equality is inevitably going to manifest some degree of discrimination, which unfortunately transcends into varying degrees of contempt or even violence. While the above is undisputable(?), as this is potentially a conflictive article/discussion page I have no wish to enter into a flame war on Wikipedia and will not include it, in the hope that someone more qualified than I, can word it better and be more PC. As regards the Schwarznegger reference, I know many men here in Spain - and clearly of certain generations - who are extremely weedy individuals and who nevertheless demonstrate extremely strong "machistic" attitudes. Defence mechanism? 83.180.128.192 09:53, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

I think this article will improve by reading the definition in original Spanish: “Macho” means virile, but “machista” means that who supports a behavior of dominance of men over women through gender clichés, violence, etc. and thus it is NEGATIVE without any doubt.

Macho and machista are NOT SYNONIMOUS: There are millions of virile men that are not machistas and support women’s rights. There are gentlemen that support women’s rights. Being polite with women is not synonymous of being in favor of men’s dominance over women. Those men proud of being machistas are ignorants, bullies, or both. In regions with a lack of high education and with a large portion of the population with poor education, there are men that are both machos and machistas and are proud of exert dominance and violence over the others.

Certainly, the spoken language may derive from the official one, by many reasons: cohabitation with other languages or dialects, immigrant or foreign influence, lack of basic education, etc. Contrary to English that is ruled by usage, Spanish definitions are hardly controlled by the Academia of Spanish Language (a different one in each country), so it’s not the people who decide a meaning but the acamedics. It is supervised by wisdom.

Wikipedia articles should be written by people that have a deep knowledge on both the language and the topic and not being based on the folkloric feelings of people in diverse regions. Because they are absolutely different things, we cannot misunderstand scholar knowledge with neither ethnology nor people’s opinion. Otherwise we start to erase any light that Knowledge and Study can bring us and introduce fog and obscurity. Blurry understanding is prone to be victim of manipulation and fall in ignorance. Clarity and precision are key to reach freedom through knowledge. 46.222.19.35 (talk) 06:31, 15 October 2022 (UTC)

Definition Confusion

The definition of machismo given by the article is completely wrong: 1-Machismo is not an excessive masculin behaviour: It is the consideration of men as superior to women. Male chauvinism or male sexism could be adecuate translations. This is the definition of the Real Academia de la Lengua, the highest authority institution of the Spanish language[1] 2- Although the word is in Spanish language, male sexism is not part of Spanish culture more than in other countries of Europe or of the rest of the world. It is related to ignorance and backwardness of some people, no matter which nationanity they are. I think it is offensive to include the article under the category Spanish culture. Some assertions made in the article are related with the term Macho, as it is used in English language, and with the clichés about Spain, but not to the word Machista. Machista behaviour is not only not part of the Spanish culture, but persecuted by the society and the laws in modern Spain

These statements are inflamatory and essentialist. Stereotypes are not fact and the above statements are not NPOV. I vote for a reconstruction of the definiton of Machismo as well as fine tuning of its role in negatively depicting Latino's in American Literature24.141.113.105 (talk) 01:56, 25 October 2012 (UTC)

24.141.160.232 (talk) 23:24, 22 October 2012 (UTC)I disagree as although the Real Academia de la Lengua, the highest authority institution of the Spanish language it does not nor cannot represent nor respect the heterogeneity of cultures that use the spanish language. Latin American cultures are not present anywhere within this article, nor is any scholarly research from the perspective of Latin American academics. As a result by not acknowledging the historical colonially based power relations. Hence, colonialism must be mentioned in order to acheive a neutral point of view within the article24.141.113.105 (talk) 01:56, 25 October 2012 (UTC)

Furthermore, none of the Latin American that argue that there are positive connotations to the concept of machismo also known as Callebrismo. Hence i vote for the inclusion of Callebrismo and its depiction of positive characteristics of Machismo as well as section regarding the criticism and controversy surrounding only depicting only the negative point of view regarding Machismo on the basis that it is neither NPOV nor objective. This is because by sourcing only Real Academia de la Lengua, the article becomes Eurocentric and not NPOV24.141.160.232 (talk) 23:24, 22 October 2012 (UTC) i

There is an Academia de la Lengua in every country were Spanish is spoken. There is a Spanish one and there is a Mexican one. They regulate the definitions and vocabulary within their own country. Contrary to English, 1) Spanish is a language with clear rules and very few exceptions, 2) a term is not necessarily accepted because some people use it. The reason of this is not to exert any power over anybody, but to keep the language consistent with itself. These two characteristics have allowed the language to be easy to learn, read, and speak (important to alphabetize a large part of the population and not make it an elitist language, in which only those who can study it many years can speak and write correctly, i.e. in Spanish spelling is not challenging because the rules are one-to-one, so the mistakes you can do are only a few) and they also allow it to be intelligible for 500 years along a vast territory and among very different people. With respect to words, regionalisms (native words, folklore, etc.) are generally accepted because they enrich the language by adding cultural dimensions; however some slang, incorrect use of the language, and foreign words might impoverish it, and they are regulated. We are completely free to speak as we want, we can have many registers and move from one to another, but it is our choice to speak correctly or not. Speaking is an active action. Speaking correctly and precisely in each situation is crucial to have an efficient communication and avoid possible misunderstandings. IGomezLeal (talk) 01:11, 9 March 2023 (UTC)

Based on further research and discovery of additional academic sources completed by Latino scholars i am going to rewrite the definition of Machismo to incorporate the above criticism24.141.113.105 (talk) 01:37, 25 October 2012 (UTC)

 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.141.160.232 (talk) 01:32, 20 October 2012 (UTC) 

Therefore, I vote for the deletion of the category, and the reestructuration of the contents in two articles, Macho and Machista. --Garcilaso 17:00, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

Proceed--Garcilaso 13:49, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

This whole article is wrong. Machismo means sexism , so someone is "machista" if they think one sex is superior to the other. While "femenista" is the opposite. Also this has nothing to do with Spanish culture , Spain is as or less sexist than other countries. I find this article offensive , who ever wrote this is a complete idiot , only protect an article when its right ! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Alvarodelamo (talk • contribs) 23:59, 19 January, 2007 (UTC)

24.141.160.232 (talk) 23:24, 22 October 2012 (UTC)We must remember that spain is not the only country that subscribes to Machismo and there that are many cultures including Latin American cultures that identify with Machismo. Also of note is that these characteristics generalize and not everyone can subscribe and fullfill them24.141.160.232 (talk)

Rather than a delete, I propose a radical rewrite. "Machismo" is clearly a concept that English speakers feel strongly about. But it should be made clear that:

• English-"machismo" should not be confused with Spanish-"machismo". The two words are false friends -- they have different meanings in each laguage.
• What, exactly, is "machismo" supposed to mean in English. FilipeS 20:23, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Thank you, FilipeS, for separating the concepts. The article improved a lot!--Garcilaso 12:19, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

"Machismo itself derives from macho, a latin word taken from Galician". Excuse me? Im from Galicia and i never listened this. --213.60.86.151 (talk) 13:08, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

I think this indeed needs to be sourced; without any special reference I would assume that the word "macho" derives from the latin "masculus" in both Portuguese/Galician and Castillian. If there is indeed a Galician-Portuguese -> Castillian borrowing then that should perhaps be sourced. The RAE dictionary says that Castillian "macho" is from the Latin "masculus" (http://buscon.rae.es/draeI/SrvltConsulta?TIPO_BUS=3&LEMA=macho) so I'm going to remove that reference until something concrete appears that justifies it.--Bellum sine bello (talk) 15:39, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

To trace back everything to colonial based power relations is overly simplistic and hyperbolic, particularly when it comes to complicated Latin America history given that native empires were actually defeated by armies that were in many cases comprised mostly of other indigenous warriors. In any event Old World diseases proved to be the real ‘conquerors’ of Latin America, not warfare. So attributing machismo a response to solely European conquest, as if a few hundred men were responsible for single handedly killing tens of thousands of indigenous inhabitants, is tenuous and misguided at best. Furthermore it denies the agency of the indigenous role and involvement in these events and just further promotes a bigoted viewpoint of Latin American identity being that of helpless primitive humans. Just because an individual out there has written something on the topic at hand, shouldn’t mean it should automatically be included; the caliber and pedigree of the author sourced should matter.

Not just in Spanish

This might be of little interest but the difference in concept between the English and the Spanish definitions also applies to Portuguese (which aligns with the Spanish). I'll leave it alone since this is perhaps of no concern but perhaps simply mentioning that both the word and the definition apply equally to Spain and Portugal would not be totally superfluous.--Bellum sine bello (talk) 15:44, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

What also must be noted is Machismo is not just a term for Spain and Portugal as the term is often used to describe Latin American masculinity as well. Without mention of Latin American perspectives there runs the risk of repeating historical power relations established through colonialism24.141.113.105 (talk) 01:41, 25 October 2012 (UTC)24.141.160.232 (talk) 23:25, 22 October 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.141.160.232 (talk) 01:27, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

I vote to change the title of this section to include Latin America cultures, while also awknowleding the differences between the Latino cultures01:41, 25 October 2012 (UTC)

I concur. The Spanish word "machismo" simply means "male chauvinism" and is culturally neutral. By borrowing this word, this article (and many iffy academics before it) make a gratuitous association between male chauvinism and Hispanic culture. It's the equivalent of having a "male chauvinism" entry in the Spanish-language Wikipedia and using the term as a reflection of the supposedly male-chauvinistic nature of American culture. The adoption of the word "machismo" by English language must be seen in the context of anti-Hispanic prejudice. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.209.187.143 (talk) 15:37, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

Disagree. You will need to find a citation that states that " 'machismo' simply means 'male chauvinism' ". Mercy11 (talk) 23:21, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

For example, the link that you deleted: "Actitud de prepotencia de los varones respecto de las mujeres."--MiguelMadeira (talk) 23:43, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

That is not a rock solid link; it is open to interpretation. If you backwards translate chauvinism from English to Spanish it is "chauvinismo" (See it HERE) We need to stick with statements that support the claim directly, per WP:RS. If we backwards translate your "Actitud de prepotencia de los varones respecto de las mujeres", it says "arrogant attitude of men towards women", and the word "chauvinism" is not mentioned at all (See it HERE). Arrogance is not chauvinism. We need a direct correlation between machismo and chauvinism, and so far I find none. Mercy11 (talk) 19:10, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

You took the first meaning, what about the second one: "forma de sexismo caracterizada por la prevalencia del varón" (in case you don't speak Spanish: https://translate.google.com/#view=home&op=translate&sl=es&tl=en&text=forma%20de%20sexismo%20caracterizada%20por%20la%20prevalencia%20del%20var%C3%B3n). More references, just write "machismo definición" on Google: https://www.significados.com/machismo/ https://concepto.de/machismo/ https://diccionario.reverso.net/espanol-definiciones/machismo https://conceptodefinicion.de/machismo/ https://definicion.mx/machismo/ http://confidencialandaluz.com/definicion-de-machismo/. I don't know in Latin America, but at least in Europe I'm 100% sure "machismo" has this connotation "sexism"/"male chauvinism" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chauvinism#Male_chauvinism --> "Male chauvinism is the belief that men are superior to women." I would say it is exactly that). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.121.152.199 (talk) 09:29, 18 February 2019 (UTC)

Anti-Catholicism

Isn't machismo related to certain kind of anti-Catholic stereotype ? Every country that has large numbers of devout Catholics, especially in Latin America, has been accused of this type of mentality or behavior. However, since Spain is less Catholic than it was 20 years ago, all of a sudden the machismo stereotypes have in many ways become obsolete. There are arguably similar steteotypes for Arab-Muslim societies, but none of them have really received the same machismo label. ADM (talk) 20:33, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

Mexican "confusion"

I, personally, have only encountered the Spanish meaning in Mexico, not the Nahuatl meaning per se.
My personal perspective does not mean much, and the Nahuatl meaning does reinforce the Spanish behaviour.
So it may be true.
However the article in Spanish Wikipedia repeats our paragraph here with no further elaboration. Except to give the date of the dictionary, which is 1885.
So is this "confusion" a problem in 19th century literature only?
Or is there a genuine "funny strange" or "funny ha-ha" problem as we have in English?
Just wondering, Varlaam (talk) 22:02, 7 August 2011 (UTC)

"Machismo" in Portuguese and Spanish

I removed the "nowadays almost always in the sense that supposed feminine traits among males (or traits historically viewed as non-feminine among females, see marianismo) are to be deemed undesirable, socially reprovable or deviations" because this is NOT the main meaning of "machismo" in Portuguese. In Portuguese (and, afaik, in Spanish) the fundamental meaning of "machismo" is to think that men are superior to women, not that "men with stereotypically male traits" are superior to "men with stereotypically female traits".--81.84.110.121 (talk) 21:15, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

Bitch, please, you are newbie. Machismo is obviously linked to homophobia. Believing that men have the right to sport privileges over non-males is masculinism and indeed machismo, but it is only a particular set of the whole gender role. 177.65.53.191 (talk) 17:05, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

I agree that "machistas" are usually homophobics, but that is not the meaning of "machismo" in Portuguese (in theory, you can be simultaneously a "machista" and a homossexual man; probably it is rare, but not impossible); "machismo" in Portuguese and Spanish means to believe that man are superior to woman, final point. I think that you are mixing the English and the Portuguese/Spanish meanings of the word.--194.38.144.2 (talk) 12:45, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

Where in this article is the mention of the positive aspects of Machismo, research has shown that the characteristics of those who identify with Machismo are expanded to include positive characteristics such as honour and responsibility to the family. Additionally, a glaring absence throughout the article is that the characteristics of Machismo are the exact same characteristics that define North American hegemonic masculinity, which is also seen as having traits. So through this absence we are suggesting that latin americans who identify wtih Machismo are terrible people without recognizing that those in North America glorify the exact same characteristics24.141.113.105 (talk) 01:42, 25 October 2012 (UTC)

I vote to include these similarities in the definition as they are an important parallel, that will decrease the negativity surrounding Machismo, while also making the article more NPOV24.141.113.105 (talk) 01:42, 25 October 2012 (UTC)

24.141.160.232 (talk) 23:25, 22 October 2012 (UTC). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.141.160.232 (talk) 20:40, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

This article is going nuts... At least a bit

While the recent contributions are very welcome (despite their need to serious clean-up regarding punctuation, use of uppercase letters, use of the "Latin" term and references that should preferably be added after periods and commas, before a space), they lack a bit of NPOV.

It is obviously true that Latin American masculinity is not inherently evil, that the "bad parts" of machismo are not just Latin American and that our historical representation as culture was hugely misconstrued by these stereotypes, nevertheless AFAIK contemporary third-wave feminism holds that gender roles as defined solely by sex are per se a problem – what includes my view, as a Brazilian, of the cavalheirismo (it is important to note the difference between cavalheiro, loanword from Spanish for polite, socially desirable, refined men i.e. Sir, and cavaleiro, a horseman) –, and that in a society with true and complete gender equality, men do not need to act in a way different to women because of pre-established roles, that is, people are supposed to be whatever they want, irrespective of what we Latin American AND Westerners think would be hypermasculine, manly, emasculated, effeminated or feminine ("even cisgender and heterosexual" people may be very apathetic/chippy or sulky about gender roles), so that need to have separated "good male" and "good female" habits is very unlikely – at least that is what everyone can see in the debates in open Iberian-language feminism forums out there when the question of "good machismo" and women's like for it pop up –, and even such "utopic"/unforeseeing points of view are of interest when one does a point here, because it has to do with the topic.

Also, Brazil is culturally closer to Portugal than any other country and as such >80% of the characteristics we share with other Latino countries, want it or not, it is because of our common Iberian heritage rather than common geographic location (not to talk about the differences between Spanish-speaking American countries), and as such too elemental parts of a culture such as religious rites, coming of age rituals (e.g. quinceañera), language use, manners and, obviously, gender roles can't be inherently "Latin American" but rather Ibero-American. Lguipontes (talk) 09:56, 1 November 2012 (UTC)

article a little esoteric?

the article is very informative, but i think that it delves more into analysis than is needed for a wikipedia page. the average person may be confused. (i study human geography so it makes sense to me) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.46.196.161 (talk) 07:55, 18 November 2012 (UTC)

The article is becoming silly

The article was good some months ago, explaining that in English "machismo" has the connotation of agressivness, strenght, courage, etc., while in the orignal Portuguese and Spanish has the meaning of to consider that man are superior to woman.

Today:

- The English meaning of "machismo" was totally removed from the article

- The Portuguese/Spanish meaning becomes totaly confuse; and no, in Portuguese "machismo" does not mean that that "feminine traits among males (or traits historically viewed as non-feminine among females, see marianismo) are to be deemed undesirable, socially reprovable or deviations" (if anything, this is the English meaning); it means to believe that man are superior to woman.

And please, let's remove the "western cultures" from the caption of a picture of a man in India..--194.38.144.2 (talk) 12:39, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

Go read a little more before criticizing my text if you know nothing of gender theory.

For sexism be reproduced, it needs hegemonic masculinity. For hegemonic masculinity to exist, sexes need gendered education and this include extreme social reprovation of traits associated with the different sex (that are regarded as "opposite" in such societies) in children since an early age, what includes legitimizing and even encouraging social ostracism, by children on their own or by authority/model figures.

(For what I learned it? The most obvious way of showing anti-gay hatred based on lack of masculinity sucks is that different societies and species have a blurred line between sexes/genders, and certain gender roles and interpretations of gender non-conformity vary wildly between those, and also that biologically-motivated phenomena such as homosexuality, transsexualism and intersexualism occur in nature in individuals with perfect sex chromossomes and average-looking general genetic background at high percentages of said populations, thus showing that there is nothing natural in sex differences, and they are influenced by environmental factors, including not only varying degrees of womb hormones but also socialization. Try to repeat those things in an Asperger's-like scientific-looking monotonous tone in tl;dr texts everywhere - my behavior in orkut with everything I got mad into x3 - gender difference discussions pops out and you'll surely convince people. If they criticize you, present tons of literature and quoted studies yourself refuting every dumbness they present and arguing in favor of your preferred theory. Try to not get personal, speak like a professional or a teacher, and avoid any kind of personal attacks or acusations, including distancing yourself from ideological comrades with questionable methods or ideas. It works best if you perfected this at school showing alleged intelligence as the best quality you have to socially present yourself in a tone that made everyone think you awesome instead of pretentious. You will note that the profile of people that demonstrate greatest preferrence for different gender outcomes of socialization coming from inborn traits and sex-determinist mentality as purely reflecting the common sense of what we see in nature are exactly the same related to heterosexism and allegiance on social conservative mores on either or both the legal and social acceptance of same-sex relationships. You'll be called names like militant atheist, Gramscist, cultural marxist, child-eating communist, feminazi, gay Nazi or esquerdopata i.e. 'pinkopath' depending on the personality of the person you comfront or comfronts you, so remember on being kind, friendly, gentle and desirable, making friends that aren't seen as ideologically related to you.)

Portuguese machismo stands not only for sexism but also for any kind of problematic hegemonic masculinity with the potential of reforcing patriarchal society or otherwise strong, anti-invidualist gender conformity. Lusophone cultures are each day becoming more and more postmodern, so the language we use may acquire new senses out of different usage because of things that were non-issues or taboos decades ago becoming daily debates today. I am a Brazilian so I would know. ;) Lguipontes (talk) 12:45, 2 May 2013 (UTC)

Chimera article

This article is a Chimera article, trying to mix the English meaning of "machismo" (excessive demonstrations of masculinity) and the Portuguese/Spanish meaning (male chauvinism) in the same article, and if it was the same thing.--MiguelMadeira (talk) 18:28, 5 January 2014 (UTC)

Indeed, this still applies in 2020. This article still links to "machismo" in Spanish which means something completely different. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.73.51.229 (talk) 19:05, 18 January 2020 (UTC)

Intended Contributions

This semester, I plan on making revisions to this article as part of a class assignment that intends for students to contribute to articles in Wikipedia concerning human development in global and local communities. Since I feel that the current article really only focuses on the meaning and origin of the word Machismo and how the Machismo front is portrayed through literature and media, I plan on addressing an earlier critique mentioned on this Talk page to detail the historical context of Machismo to see how policies and societal practices have molded around this concept. This will help readers understand how this ideology has translated into the political and social structure of many nations today. I also plan on adding new sections that outline the implications of Machismo on Spain and Latin American countries as well as Latino communities in the United States.

I will structure my contribution into 3 new sections: Implications at the “Community Level”, “Interpersonal Level”, and “Individual Level”. I feel like these subsections are a good way to categorize the difference consequences of Machismo because it helps readers understand how individual pressures affect the social structure of a community and vice versa. Due to the nature of my class, I would like to detail on how the Machismo identity has shaped views on the LGBT community, rape culture, alcohol/drug abuse, domestic violence, gang violence, suicide, and bullying. However, I understand the importance of maintaining neutrality, so I also plan on detailing how Machismo has shaped communities in positive ways as well such as Machismo’s effect family protection, chivalry, work ethic, etc.

I am open to any kind of feedback and am willing to explain further if you have any questions, comments, concerns, etc. Also, I was wondering if someone could give me suggestions as to how to present this information as neutral as possible (positive and negative implications) and also how to make this not sound so much like a cause/effect article but rather more on just how these social issues/benefits tie into the Machismo ideology.

Dmillar23 (talk) 23:55, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

As for "as neutral as possible" I'd suggest first becoming thoroughly familiar with WP:NPOV. Together with that, the WP:V on WP:RS. If you get those under your belt, you will be 99% there, as those are, IMO, the common stumbling blocks for many editors. Good luck, Mercy11 (talk) 01:24, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

Bullying

Except for the 1st sentence, this entire paragraph is talking about bullying, not about machismo. The 1st entence fails to establish a cause-effect relationship between machismo and bullying; just having both words existing in the same sentence is not a cause-effect relationship. Removed per WP:SYN. Mercy11 (talk) 12:59, 28 March 2014 (UTC)

Violence section

Per WP:V, these claims need exact the page number where each claim is found. Mercy11 (talk) 13:19, 28 March 2014 (UTC)

Migrant work section

In the 1st paragragh, WP:SYN is evident as it would then imply that every man that migrates to another country is an example of machismo, exhibits machismo and is macho man. If this was correct, we could then argue that every American Blackwater man that migrated to Iraq was a macho man. On that basis even religiuos ministers, perhaps even misionaries, could be considered examples of machismo as lonmg as they migrate from their home country to another country were they get paid better. The 2nd paragraph has absolutely nothing to do with machismo. Removed per WP:UNDUE. Mercy11 (talk) 13:52, 28 March 2014 (UTC)

Peer Review

Hi Daniel. I think you've added a good amount of great work here. My main recommendation to you would be to ensure to do a last review of your contribution and edit any grammar issues as well as possibly add more transitions so that the text flows a bit better.Brodgers15 (talk) 23:12, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

Gang Membership Subsection is Racist and should be removed

The entire section on gang membership of Mexican American adolescents should be removed from this article. The subject is machismo, which is a very broad subject. To include a subsection on specifically Mexican American teenage criminals is extremely bigoted. It has nothing to do with the subject at hand which is machismo its origins and implications to society at large. This subject is about masculinity not criminality of one small group. I call for the immediate removal of the Gang Membership section. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.40.62.32 (talk) 13:49, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

Removed section - per WP:OR. The word machismo isn't found once in the citation given. To conclude that gangs and machismo are related falls under WP:SYNC, thus WP:OR. Mercy11 (talk) 18:48, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

Copy Edit/Literary Examples Relevant to Latin America In helping to copyedit this particular document I hope to divulge more in the Latin American aspects of machismo that is broadly generalized. Extensive sections fail to follow Wikipedia’s citation policies or its missing proper citations. Throughout the article the contributor relies extensively on a assumed general knowledge in trying to bring forward the concept. In the first section that gives the historical backing of the word the contributor fails to cite any work that can substantiate the claims that are being made. I hope to incorporate Guido Roggerio’s (editor) The Image of Man: The Creation of Modern Masculinity and the historical insights that is offered on machismo and its Spanish/Portuguese origins. In the section titled “Criticisms and Controversy” it fails to incorporate proper historical and contemporary references to the usage of machismo and how it affects the lived experiences of Latin American males in a non-fiction sense. By integrating the fictional references of the contributor with lived experiences of Latinos a more sturdy framework can be given of the termChantaln876 (talk) 05:12, 7 April 2014 (UTC)

Copy Edit/Literary Examples Relevant to Latin America

In helping to copyedit this particular document I hope to divulge more in the Latin American aspects of machismo that is broadly generalized. Extensive sections fail to follow Wikipedia’s citation policies or its missing proper citations. Throughout the article the contributor relies extensively on a assumed general knowledge in trying to bring forward the concept. In the first section that gives the historical backing of the word the contributor fails to cite any work that can substantiate the claims that are being made. I hope to incorporate Guido Roggerio’s (editor) The Image of Man: The Creation of Modern Masculinity and the historical insights that is offered on machismo and its Spanish/Portuguese origins. In the section titled “Criticisms and Controversy” it fails to incorporate proper historical and contemporary references to the usage of machismo and how it affects the lived experiences of Latin American males in a non-fiction sense. By integrating the fictional references of the contributor with lived experiences of Latinos a more sturdy framework can be given of the term. Chantaln876 (talk) 05:14, 7 April 2014 (UTC)

Subjectivity makes for bad gender studies articles

This article does not only reflect facts about the term or it's common usage, it takes an almost complete stance to identify the subject with general misogyny. The implications section should be absolutely removed. Citing articles about HIV and pulling "informed opinions" while citing them at the bottom of the page does not constitute a "objective' opinion, but a completely subjective one unde the guile of "citations", unrelated or twisted to fit the subject at hand. Again, this article should only point the general usage of the term and it's origins, it's history, and then point to misogyny as one of it's byproducts. Another thing to note is that most if not all the opinions on this talk page begin with a personal statement ("I never head the word used this way!", "It means *this* because i experienced it differently!") and then after sufficient discussion, the person bringing up an article from somewhere citing the middle of a sentence and calling it a day without actually reading or cross referencing anything. This is frustating for any person that reads this article to learn about HOW THE WORD CAME TO BE AND IT'S MEANING not it's PERCIEVED NOTION by a group of people. Such notions should be contained in a forum not on a encyclopedia. --Idroppedit (talk) 09:36, 16 January 2015 (UTC)

NPOV under "Influences"

The "Influences" section seems quite biased to me. Words like "rampant" and "submission" and phrases such as "she is once again treated as an object rather than a human" or "It will take major change to overthrow machismo ideas" are, at least in my point of view, quite biased against the concept. --24.72.137.130 (talk) 04:38, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

External links modified

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Adding Link

In the sentence " American understanding of manliness that focuses more on honour and chivalry." We should link chivalry with the corresponding wiki page. --Sdcox004 (talk) 17:56, 8 September 2016 (UTC)

What have you got against Chile?

If you were going to include analyses of "macho" culture around the world or in Spanish-speaking countries, fine, but singling out one country and depicting its male population with crude stereotypes looks a lot like a hit job.

Either look at other countries or take out this gratuitous swipe. It stands out in what's already a very shaky article like a sore thumb. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.95.174.225 (talk) 20:17, 8 October 2016 (UTC)

Definition allegedly from Merriam-Webster

@Mercy11: In this edit, you've added the following definition: "a strong sense of masculine pride...[with] the supreme valuation of characteristics culturally associated with the masculine and a denigration of characteristics associated with the feminine", and sourced it to Merriam-Webster. However, in the linked source, only the part "a strong sense of masculine pride" can be found; the rest is nowhere to be seen. The phrasing "supreme valuation" sounds overly florid and clunky, and the phrase "supreme valuation of characteristics" only leads to books and websites which seem to literally quote Wikipedia's definition, which raises suspicion that the quote is made up of whole cloth, but has now spread all over the Internet and propagated into RS (raising concerns of circularity). Maybe the referenced page's content has changed, or the URL you gave was in error, but I can't check the Merriam-Webster's Concise Encyclopedia to see if that's what happened. So an explanation for your edit would really be appreciated. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 15:17, 7 November 2016 (UTC)

Hi. If that is what I added, then that must be what was there when I accessed it, or perhaps a second cite is needed to https://www.britannica.com/topic/machismo or perhaps not.

In any event, want to actualize it into something else yet? Be bold and go ahead! So long as it is sourced, it is permissible. Best wishes, Mercy11 (talk) 02:03, 15 November 2016 (UTC)

Fixed to current source. Desette (talk) 07:36, 1 February 2017 (UTC)

Cuba, Brazil

The page doesn't mention Cuba. My sources are controversial, so I don't edit the page at the moment.

Sources about Brazil are mainly in Portuguese, so I don't understand them.Xx236 (talk) 10:20, 5 December 2016 (UTC)

This article is a disgrace, vague and unacademic phrases like "in many Latin american countries" would not even be tolerated in a basic academic essay

This article is a disgrace, vague and unacademic phrases like "in many Latin american countries" would not even be tolerated in a basic academic essay. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.193.135.85 (talk) 19:57, 16 May 2017 (UTC)

Potential Articles to Cite

Hello, I'm planning on using some of the articles below to present research that identifies machismo's current prevalence (primarily in the United States) and how acculturation may be affecting it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by EzraFernandezCastaneda (talk • contribs) 19:52, 14 August 2017 (UTC)

1. Barker, G., & Loewenstein, I. (1997). Where the boys are: Attitudes related to masculinity, fatherhood, and violence toward women among low-income adolescent and young adult males in Rio de Janeiro, Brazil. Youth & Society, 29(2), 166-196. doi:10.1177/0044118X97029002002

2. Hirai, M., Winkel, M. H., & Popan, J. R. (2014). The role of machismo in prejudice toward lesbians and gay men: Personality traits as moderators. Personality And Individual Differences, 70105-110. doi:10.1016/j.paid.2014.06.028

3. Dotti Sani, G. M., & Quaranta, M. (2017). The best is yet to come? Attitudes toward gender roles among adolescents in 36 countries. Sex Roles, 77(1-2), 30-45. doi:10.1007/s11199-016-0698-7

4. Rogers, A. A., DeLay, D., & Martin, C. L. (2017). Traditional masculinity during the middle school transition: Associations with depressive symptoms and academic engagement. Journal Of Youth And Adolescence, 46(4), 709-724. doi:10.1007/s10964-016-0545-8

5. Intindola, M. L., Jacobson, R. P., Jacobson, K. L., & DelCampo, R. G. (2016). Machismo in organizations: Individual predictors & context-dependent outcomes. Employee Responsibilities And Rights Journal, 28(2), 113-131. doi:10.1007/s10672-015-9274-5

6. Matsuda, Y. (2017). Actor–partner interdependence model analysis of sexual communication and relationship/family planning factors among immigrant Latino couples in the United States. Health Communication, 32(5), 612-620. doi:10.1080/10410236.2016.1160317

7. Rueda, H. A., & Williams, L. R. (2016). Mexican American adolescent couples communicating about conflict: An integrated developmental and cultural perspective. Journal Of Adolescent Research, 31(3), 375-403. doi:10.1177/0743558415584999

8. Sanchez, D., Whittaker, T. A., Hamilton, E., & Arango, S. (2017). Familial ethnic socialization, gender role attitudes, and ethnic identity development in Mexican-origin early adolescents. Cultural Diversity And Ethnic Minority Psychology, 23(3), 335-347. doi:10.1037/cdp0000142 — Preceding unsigned comment added by EzraFernandezCastaneda (talk • contribs) 06:52, 31 July 2017 (UTC)

Attack on Machismo(Men)

I think this article blatantly attacks Machismo (Men) and is discriminative against men and generally tries to make them feel guilty of their natural masculinity and again pussifies men. Sbuda777 (talk) 23:27, 27 March 2020 (UTC)

The perspective of a male inhabitant of Argentina

The term machismo in Argentina is a direct translation of male chauvinism, that is "male prejudice against women; the belief that men are superior in terms of ability, intelligence, etc.". No one would think of linking it to being "very manly" or "self reliant" as it is a very delicate term associated with the modern feminist movement. For that approach the words macho or "macho man" already exist.

If you want to talk about chivalry and its associated Spanish word "caballerosidad" do a different article, as it only adds to the confusion.

Backward thinking men will try to argue that the word has positive connotations it is up to you to give them room or not here perpetuating gender inequality. A feminist man is perfectly capable of protecting his family and providing for it.

I vote for the removal of the article as it mixes different terminology that has no direct relation to each other and it doesn't even link to the male chauvinism Wikipedia article which is absolutely key, and ultimately the only real analogy of the term.

Also I don't think it's relevant what English speaking communities believe the term means as it is a foreign word and they are talking from a position of ignorance. The discussion of its meaning should be left to Spanish speaking communities. Something that should be common sense but it seems that it isn't. If English speaking people decide to "re purpose" the term machismo making it a derivation of macho man they are only harming Spanish cultures by showing total indifference towards their opinion.

In summary:

Machista: Male chauvinist.

Macho/macho man: The prototype of tough guy, self reliant and very manly (from a traditional point of view).

Caballero: Gentlemen, somewhat associated with the chivalric code. (It is also considered a male chauvinistic attitude in many ways, as they depict women as fragile damsels in distress.

Emicesar (talk) 18:41, 6 December 2020 (UTC)

Not Femininity; Discrimination

I don't think it's the case men 'fear femininity' as such. Rather they fear judgmentalism; that if they are perceived as insufficiently masculine they will be judged and treated adversely. Justifiably so, and by both sexes. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.151.210.84 (talk) 15:33, 3 June 2022 (UTC)

Wiki Education assignment: Gender Welfare and Poverty

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 31 August 2022 and 7 December 2022. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Feminista del Caribe 22 (article contribs). Peer reviewers: Sshack2, Latterrior.

— Assignment last updated by Shakaigaku Obasan (talk) 00:58, 29 September 2022 (UTC)

Wiki Education assignment: Gender and Sexuality in World Civilizations I

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 27 September 2022 and 10 December 2022. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Natalyval (article contribs).

— Assignment last updated by Natalyval (talk) 20:37, 18 November 2022 (UTC)

Confusing Discussion of Machismo's Negative Consequences in Introduction

The introduction includes a paragraph that attempts to summarize critiques of Machismo:

"Machismo is a factor challenged among different groups due to how an ideal man is expected to be portrayed, which builds pressure. Mentally, men may feel the need to take up more opportunities to meet expectations, such as supporting the home, or maintaining employment, leading to increased stress. This may also take a toll as physically well straining to be strong and overexerting the body, or the opposite of putting on weight by not having the desired physique and feeling inferior. Furthermore, researchers suggest that machismo can portray the supremacy or dominance that a man feels he has over a woman due to cultural and societal factors."

This is poorly written to the point of making little sense, leaving the reader without a fundamental grasp of Machismo's negative impacts on men, women, and society. In an article about a complex socio-cultural concept, it is crucial that the debates over Machismo be laid out in completely clear terms. The introduction and many other sections of this article need to be substantially improved. Milkbaba (talk) 04:26, 22 March 2023 (UTC)

Added paragraph linking Machismo to femicide in Latin America

I added a paragraph discussing how machismo can create conditions that result in increased incidence of Femicide in Latin America which is an article I am working on as a student right now. Stud3nt1947 (talk) 05:28, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

Request for feedback on related article

I am currently editing the Femicide in Latin America article and am open to any feedback on the section that relates to this article (titled Gender Roles) or the article overall! Stud3nt1947 (talk) 03:03, 8 November 2023 (UTC)

Wiki Education assignment: Monday - Spring 2024 HIST 401

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 22 January 2024 and 13 May 2024. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Jawgarci (article contribs).

— Assignment last updated by Jawgarci (talk) 03:23, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

Representation of Machismo and External Influences

Hello.

This article offers a surprisingly balanced perspective for an English-language take on a Latin American cultural phenomenon. However, there are still areas that could be improved. In discussing changes in attitudes toward machismo, it would be beneficial for the article to better acknowledge the significant roles played by Latin American feminists and LGBTQ+ activists, who have been the primary drivers of cultural and social change. Instead, the focus is predominantly on "acculturation" in the United States and the impact of American social values on Latino immigrants.

While influence from socially progressive countries can affect the development of a progressive consciousness in Latin America, the article's lack of discussion on the impact of Latin American social movements oversimplifies these changes as being primarily due to American influence. This perspective not only ignores the fact that the USA is not always a beacon of progressiveness—having one of the highest femicide rates among so-called "First World" countries—but also that attitudes toward women and homosexuality in many Latin American countries are similar to, or more progressive than, those in the USA. For instance, according to Pew Research country surveys, acceptance of gay marriage is similar in Mexico (63%) and higher in Argentina (67%) than in the United States (62%). Acceptance for gay marriage is also higher in young Mexicans (83%) than young Americans (72%).

This observation highlights the irony in how the article, despite acknowledging the problematic views of machismo as "all that is wrong in a man" from a Nordicist/American perspective, seems to be written from an American viewpoint that views Latin American social norms as antiquated, violent, outdated, and inferior.

Additionally, I am concerned about the article's association between "machismo" and Latino criminality in the USA. This connection is a significant stretch. Research indicates that U.S. Latinos have a crime rate similar to that of whites when adjusted for age and income. Moreover, issues such as high school dropout rates, a lack of interest in academics, and a focus on hard physical labor are more often results of socioeconomic factors rather than gender roles. This portrayal risks reducing Latin American males to stereotypes of violence and manual labor.

Given the talk page history, it appears this article has long perpetuated such clichés. I strongly recommend reevaluating how these aspects are represented to avoid further perpetuating harmful stereotypes.

Thank you for considering these points to ensure a more accurate and respectful representation of the topic. 178.197.215.115 (talk) 10:18, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

Wiki Education assignment: Modern Latin America

This article is currently the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 26 August 2024 and 18 December 2024. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): M1M1G303 (article contribs). Peer reviewers: Muskratman99.

— Assignment last updated by MabelBlabel (talk) 13:26, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

Wiki Education assignment: Reading Latine Literature

This article is currently the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 2 October 2024 and 10 December 2024. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Cutegeckos, Lunarscorpion, Solar2002 (article contribs).

— Assignment last updated by BubbleBlitz (talk) 17:08, 30 November 2024 (UTC)