Talk:Palestine (region)

Image

@Iskandar323: I think we need to find a better/more modern map; this one gives off mythical vibes to it. Makeandtoss (talk) 10:27, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

I'm a sucker for a ye olde map, but perhaps there's a less mythical one somewhere. I don't think we want anything too modern either though. This is about historic Palestine. Iskandar323 (talk) 17:37, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

The map added as lead image a couple of days ago is the worst possible type of map for this article, as it is a Biblical / imaginary map. See Cartography of Palestine for an explanation of the difference between those maps and the contemporary depictions that the cartography article focuses on.

The boundaries of the region of Palestine changed over time, and in all periods had undefined borders on the south and east. The cartography article shows this well. Mandate Palestine was the first version of Palestine with known and clearly delineated eastern and southern borders. The Mandate Palestine borderline is also what defines today’s Palestinians.

Onceinawhile (talk) 18:47, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

I see I kicked the hornet's nest. That's all well and good. I was always interested in a discussion. That's what the discussion above was for, but it received little response. The prior image was unclear, had a broken key, and was an obvious issue for the colour blind. That was three strikes. As for the image I replaced it with, I did think there might be a tad too much myth, though the history of Palestine surely reaches back into myth. I do not, by contrast, think that the should be undue emphasis on mandatory Palestine. That may define Palestinians, but it does not define historic Palestine. For much of its history, Palestine was taken to include northwestern Jordan, for instance. Mandatory Palestine is a mere 30-year snapshot out of thousands of years of history, and this is not the page on mandatory Palestine. Iskandar323 (talk) 19:28, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

I made the prior image back in 2012. Then I built the Cartography of Palestine article in 2019-20. Agree it’s time for a fresh discussion. Onceinawhile (talk) 20:50, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for taking me to Cartography of Palestine. The Jacob Ziegler map is gorgeous. I actually think something like this, slightly abstract, better reflects how the region of historic Palestine has been somewhat fluid in nature. Iskandar323 (talk) 19:34, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

Personally I am not a fan of the Ziegler map because, while a milestone in the cartographic history, it doesn’t depict a contemporary period – rather it is a mishmash of various older sources. Onceinawhile (talk) 20:52, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

The Bachiene is also a rather joyous blend of German and Arabic, and also fairly accurate spatially. Iskandar323 (talk) 19:39, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

I'm also liking its co-location of names like Esdud and Azotus – it aggregates names across several eras. Iskandar323 (talk) 20:56, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

Agreed.

If we want the purest “classical” definition, the Ptolemy map is the place to go. It is also the only one with a boundary. It therefore bring huge educational value. The downside is that it is in Greek.

In terms of modern maps, Jacotin was the big milestone. Onceinawhile (talk) 21:01, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

Bachiene's map is good without the folds, but personally I found the previous map in WP template to be better, namely because it is spatially accurate and serves an exclusively informational purpose in showing just the region; while I find historical maps also have a (distracting) artistic side to it and also gives off a Narnia vibe to the topic. Makeandtoss (talk) 10:27, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

I'd say it's more Tolkien than Narnia, although I think that's a little of a discredit to the map maker, who I'm sure was trying their best with the information available. Incidentally, one issue with the previous map that I didn't mention is that I believe it got the Syria Palaestina boundaries (or those of its successors), slightly wrong. It also ignored the Islamic, including Ottoman Palestine, period, which, while somewhat ill-defined, is obviously a notable period. Iskandar323 (talk) 19:49, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

I also struggled to properly comprehend the old map. Also, no offense at all to the map maker, it is not about the map as much as it is about the map choice for a WP article, if you know what I mean. Makeandtoss (talk) 11:34, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

  Boundaries of the Roman province Syria Palaestina, where dashed green line shows the boundary between Byzantine Palaestina Prima (later Jund Filastin) and Palaestina Secunda (later Jund al-Urdunn), as well as Palaestina Salutaris (later Jebel et-Tih and the Jifar)

  Borders of Mandatory Palestine

  Borders between Israel and the Palestinian territories (West Bank and Gaza Strip) which are claimed by the State of Palestine as its borders

@Iskandar323: do you think your concerns with the svg map could be addressed with specific improvements? We could produce a list of proposed changes and then request help from the experts at Wikipedia:Graphics Lab. Onceinawhile (talk) 22:06, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

Potentially. But where are we getting the information from? The sourcing notes on the current image file only appear to yield sources for the mandate period onwards. Iskandar323 (talk) 22:11, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

I think we start from scratch on the sourcing. Wikipedia editors' knowledge of this topic has increased very significantly since the map was first created in 2012. Onceinawhile (talk) 23:18, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

Three questions come in mind and are all related to the pre-modern period since the Mandatory period and current borders will necessarily have to stay:

1) Were the three Palaestina Roman provinces ever considered one geographic territory; if not, is it possible for us to combine them and just simply say the three Roman provinces of.., instead of showing each?

2) Do we need an exact political boundary or can we use a geographic one similar to the ones used in Ottoman, or more preferably, older Greek maps, instead of the Roman provinces?

3) Were there any province in history that had the name Palestine in it over the past 2,000 years, other than Jund Filastin and the Roman provinces (the older the better)? Makeandtoss (talk) 08:38, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

@Makeandtoss: historians have pieced together the classical provinces using the available fragments, without total clarity on the ever-changing borders - this is as true for Palestine as it is for all classical regions. For Palestine, we list the primary sources at Timeline of the name Palestine - some give reasonably clear boundaries, such as Herodotus, Pliny, Plutarch, Pausanias, Ptolemy, Pomponius Mela. Onceinawhile (talk) 20:07, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

This map has a very unusual boundary for Syria Palaestina. It's rather curious. Not sure how credible. Iskandar323 (talk) 20:14, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

Here is the 1865 book that the map accompanies. See "XXVI. Phoenice, Coelesyria, Decapolis, Iudaea Herodiadarum tempore". It doesn't explain the borders shown, but it is clear throughout that it is building on earlier 19th century scholarship. Those works were chronologically listed by Edward Robinson in 1841, Titus Tobler in 1867 and Reinhold Röhricht in 1890 (see the intro to Travelogues of Palestine). Onceinawhile (talk) 22:26, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

Yes, the carving out of Scythopolis is presumably based on something tangible – especially as it is consistent between the Roman Judaea (as a part of Decapolis) and Syria Palaestina (as a part of Arabia Petraea)-era maps. Iskandar323 (talk) 04:11, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

Okay, interesting. Actually, maybe I overcomplicated this. Maybe there’s an abstract of a general Palestine region borders over the millennia in RS that we can use for the map? Or is it better to have something political and specific like a province? Makeandtoss (talk) 20:23, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

I've stated my problem with the svg map before. Namely, I don't think that the information provided is enough to decode the green lines. That is, one cannot unambiguously label the regions based on that description. For example, is "Syria Palestina" the part inside the solid green lines or the whole region enclosed by any type of green line? On the other hand, I don't think we should start with a biblical myth map that extends even further north than Beirut. Zero^talk 09:35, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

@Makeandtoss @Onceinawhile @Zero0000: This has somewhat stalled hasn't it? Anyone have any suggestions on how best to progress? Do we want just a better, possibly less biblical old map, or do we want something bespoke from the graphics people? Iskandar323 (talk) 19:43, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

It has; I am more in favor of something with the WP template; but as we were discussing, the issue remains on the borders of Palestine prior to the British mandate; the older the reference the better. Makeandtoss (talk) 09:41, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

I liked the previous map that Oncenawhile made in 2012 showing the approximate borders of the region from the 1st to the 11th century AD. Its main problem, besides the colors, was that it included Palaestina Salutaris whose territorial extension goes beyond what the map shows. By excluding Salutris from the map and changing the line colors, this map could be used alongside the map from the Ottoman period in the infobox. I don't think we should use a map from the period before Christ since Palestine as an administrative unit did not yet exist. Mawer10 (talk) 22:34, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

I would be fine with this proposal. Onceinawhile (talk) 10:00, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

Which map is being referred to here? Makeandtoss (talk) 07:51, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

@Makeandtoss: This File:Historical boundaries of Palestine (plain).svg. Mawer10 (talk) 14:48, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

@Onceinawhile: @Mawer10: So basically the removal of the below green dashed line but not the above? I would be inclined to remove both green dashed lines, which would make Palaestina I and II a single unit, and make the map much easier to comprehend. Makeandtoss (talk) 08:56, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

I think the big question is what exactly we are trying to speak to with the image. The region of Palestine is a classically broad concept. The modern state of Palestine boundaries are specially something that is not being spoken to here. The mandatory ones are well defined but relatively fleeting in the overall historical arc. The Roman ones bounce around a little but have the pedigree of age and relative longevity on the historical record. In the mix, we are missing the Palestine that the Greek historians such as Herodotus spoke to, as well as what conceptions of Palestine existed in the Islamic period. All of this complexity, and the risk of editorial over-selectively or omission, is one reason why it could be safer to stick with a sourced image. Iskandar323 (talk) 10:11, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

The image should portray three things: modern Palestine (1967), historic Palestine (1948), and ancient Palestine (whatever period whose borders can be defined, the earlier the better).

As previously mentioned it seems that the only definable ancient Palestine is the Roman administrative provinces, in contrast to Herodotus' Palestine for example (unless the rough region is portrayed by some RS).

While I agree it is safer to stick with a sourced image, which we have not found so far, I think the proposal to omit Palaestina III is the lesser evil, and we can avoid it being misleading by specifying in the caption that the portrayed region are of Palaestina I and II, and does not include Palaestine III. Makeandtoss (talk) 11:30, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

Why should it portray the post-1948 or post-1967 Palestinian territories? That isn't actually the subject here is it. Iskandar323 (talk) 11:59, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

I was referring to pre-1948 and post-1067. Because these are the two most prominent definitions of the Palestine region. Clearly, post-1967 is less relevant but wouldn't hurt to have it. Makeandtoss (talk) 12:09, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

I would like to keep the line separating Palaestina I and Palaestina II on the map because they later became Jund Filastin and Jund al-Urdunn respectively during Islamic rule until the 11th century. But for the sake of clarity of the map, I do not object to deleting the lines. An interesting fact is that the borders of Palestine proposed by the 1916 Sykes–Picot Agreement is almost identical to the borders of Roman Palestine, which shows its importance. Mawer10 (talk) 15:28, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

Very interesting, never noticed; although 1916 curiously cut II by half and avoided east of the Jordan river. I am also fine with either option, but now I am much more comfortable supporting deleting the lines between I and II given this piece of information. Makeandtoss (talk) 09:06, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

I am fine with this. On the question of the early sources that defined historical Palestine - much of it (everything I have found over the years) is quoted on Timeline of the name Palestine.

The earliest surviving map in existence is a 700-year-old copy of Ptolemy's map, and no maps or their copies have come down to us from any earlier authors. Before Ptolemy we are reliant on quotes from narrative works, none of which are detailed enough to construct a detailed picture of the borders. Ptolemy, therefore, holds primacy in this question. Onceinawhile (talk) 20:07, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

Main problem with Ptolemy's map is that it is rough and does not show clearly defined borders, in contrast to the Roman provinces map. What are you suggesting? Makeandtoss (talk) 08:38, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

Historic Palestine

Historic Palestine is an alt name for the collective history of pre-1948 Palestine in all is vicissitudes and variations that is obviously used for natural disambiguation purposes vis-a-vis the modern Palestinian state (as exemplified in this Britannica educational reference work). Is this then perhaps a better name than the current parenthetically disambiguated title? (Also bearing in mind that WP:NCDAB favours natural disambiguation.) Just throwing this out there informally at this point for input. Thoughts? Iskandar323 (talk) 19:18, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

Tricky, this and (historical) are a bit troublesome, I mean I get it, but use is likely to lead to argument imo, especially if the pre 48 part (and I guess back to Herodotus) is not spelled out. We have SoP, Mandate and Roman links, maybe should be an Ottoman and such as well? Selfstudier (talk) 19:36, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

Yes, Ottoman Palestine is a bit of a gap, but for sure on the to-do list. Iskandar323 (talk) 19:52, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

Agreed. Onceinawhile (talk) 20:45, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

While indeed often used in RS, it is less used than the more common name of just "Palestine". Also, this name would become to be used as it is, i.e. changes will be made to all articles linking to this one from [Palestine (region)|Palestine] to [Historic Palestine], which would be redundant. But I understand the reasoning behind this proposed move, so maybe we can add Historic Palestine in the opening paragraph or other lede paragraphs instead? Makeandtoss (talk) 10:33, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

I've already added it as an alt name. Perhaps that's enough for now. Not convinced on the merits of the move myself either. Might cause search trouble, and get confused with the history page. Iskandar323 (talk) 19:44, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

Old map

Please use a more recent map instead of one from 1750 The letter elemenopy (talk) 09:02, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

Maybe you are looking for the article about the state rather than this article about the region. Sean.hoyland (talk) 17:01, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

yea I am The letter elemenopee (talk) 12:04, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

spelling errors

Hi, I've noticed a few spelling errors in this article. I'm unable to correct them myself due to this page's protection policy so perhaps someone else can help with this:
Note ii: change "tern" to "term"
Note xx: change "Stale" to "State"
Note xx: remove the full stop/period before "and reserving the right to..."
Note xx: would the wording "and reserves the right to..." work better here?
Thanks everyone! Sw257 (talk) 12:26, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

"Israel and Palestine" listed at Redirects for discussion

The redirect Israel and Palestine has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 September 3 § Israel and Palestine until a consensus is reached. — Godsy ^(TALK_CONT) 07:02, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

Misleading or incomprehensive context in the opening paragraph

From the current version of the page: "In the Hellenistic period, these names were carried over into Greek, appearing in the Histories of Herodotus in 5th century BCE as Palaistine. The Roman Empire conquered the region and in 6 CE established the province known as Judaea" It would seem, reading this, that Judaea is a name made up by some Roman conqueror, while it's more likely the Romans conquered the region from locals who already refered to their homeland as Judea. Unless we are strictly European centered, in which case only what made it in European maps and history is what counts? Gezellig~hewiki (talk) 10:36, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

I think the point that is trying to be made is that the Romans called their province "Judaea", not where the name came from. Maybe say "... established the province they called Judaea"? Peter coxhead (talk) 14:49, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

Help needed adding Map that better illuminates terminology of regions under discussion

Map showing Israel and the Palestinian Territories as outlined by the Oslo Accords. The Jordan River is on the right, and the Mediterranean Sea is on the left.

This map should replace the satellite image in the modern boundaries section. It is taken from a different page and has explanatory information not in the other maps: it shows the names used elsewhere in context along with the terrain and political regions.

The ones showing the evolutions of the border lack labels, and would be worse for them as they show the change over time. The one showing the population as a dot map is great but needs this map to show how the reality of where people live corresponds to the political debate.

I tried to replace the satellite image from the modern boundaries section but could not get the formatting to work. I would appreciate someone finding a good spot on the page or advising how to get the text flow to work. Mrflip (talk) 14:55, 14 September 2024 (UTC)

"Greater Palestine" redirect

Greater Palestine redirects here, but where is the merged content? It's not at Jordan–Palestine relations, either, where the AfD decision originally said to merge the content to.

Mergers that factually end up being deletions, against the explicit decision at AfD, because nothing ever ends up being merged at all (the merge target is never even changed in response to the decision), are a loathsome pattern in Wikipedia. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 11:22, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

Map

The 1750 map did not gain consensus per the various comments above, so I have added back the original svg map.

I understand that the svg map is preferred as it illustrates various periods, but could be simplified in certain areas and the color differential made clearer. Perhaps others could comment here, and once we have a clear set of changes agreed, we can improve the map further. Onceinawhile (talk) 09:38, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

I will repeat my proposal here then to remove the dashed green lines and keep everything else as is. This way we will have three definitions:

1- ancient Palestine (Palestina I + II in green)

2- modern Palestine (Mandatory Palestine in red)

3- official Palestine (1967 borders in blue). Makeandtoss (talk) 11:05, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

Agree with Make&toss. Zero^talk 14:43, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

Historical boundaries of Palestine

@Makeandtoss and Zero0000: How about this? Onceinawhile (talk) 15:55, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

Perfect, an improvement despite the small risk of OR for the green line. Makeandtoss (talk) 16:12, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

It's good. The fine blue line could be made more prominent but it isn't necessary. Zero^talk 01:19, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

I just realized I have been confusing two things together; the Roman province of Syria Palestina and the Byzantine provinces of Palestina I and II. I thought they were the same thing. Since they are different, wouldn't it make sense just to have Roman province of Syria Palestina, as this would eliminate the OR risk when combing the Byzantine provinces I and II? Also how sure are we of the eastern borders of Syria Palestina, was it really the Jordan River? Makeandtoss (talk) 08:10, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

This is a good question and the heart of the challenge. Looking at the detail within Timeline of the name Palestine, you can see that Wikipedia's suggestion that the Roman province was formally called "Syria Palestina" - as opposed to just "Palestina" - has no primary evidence, as both names were in use at the time. I suspect the SP name in scholarly works came originally from the existence of the name on this Louvre diploma (published at the end of the 19th century).

Equally, the borders moved around over time, and there are no fixed lines. The best we can do is identify the best scholarly sources with these borders in them across all the available periods. Onceinawhile (talk) 14:10, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

We can go with the borders used at the Syria Palaestina's article, i.e. the Jordan River. Updating the green borders to these ones should be the last improvement possible and the best outcome of this lengthy discussion. Makeandtoss (talk) 20:39, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 18 October 2024

Could you please just modify “The holy land of israel” and you make it seem like israel is a country but not Palestine.🇵🇸 Sam9472 (talk) 01:59, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Kline • talk • contribs 03:22, 18 October 2024 (UTC)