Wikipedia:Peer review/Kibbutz/archive1
I have been working on this article for about two weeks. I am hoping to nominate it to be a Featured Article, but I know that it can be improved. As I envision it, the article is 95 percent complete. I'll let you all be the judges of how comprehensive and well written it is, but this article contains much more information than is available on Britannica. Hopefully, after a few days here this article will be in good enough shape to move to the FAC page. I welcome your advice.Dinopup 04:59, 23 Feb 2005 (UTC)
- Definitely a good start. So a few observations: 1) I moved the picture to the right so as not to break the page and the table of contents. 2) The lead section should be expanded. It should summarize all of the important features of the topic and ease the reader in. That is generally considered to be 2-3 paragraphs for an article this size. It should tell a little more about the role it says they play in Israeli society. If you expand the lead section enough, maybe the picture could go back to the left, but that is very nonstandard. 3) Eliminate one sentence paragraphs. They make the prose flow badly and highlight areas that should either be expanded into a full idea or merged with neighboring paragraphs. 4) A little more context on the 'Pioneers' section is needed. Someone shouldn't have to already know the exact dates and history of initial Iraeli settlement to know what is going on and when, as the article currently requires. When did the first Jewish settlers come in? When was the British mandate? - Taxman 21:51, Feb 23, 2005 (UTC)
- Per your suggestions I eliminated all the one sentence paragraphs and added information about the ideological background of the earliest kibbutzniks. I'm not 100% satisfied with the beginnings of the ideology section. I hate to do anything that isn't "prosical," but I'm thinking of explaining the kibbutz ideology with bullet points. Rather than have unheaded paragraphs explaining the Zionist kibbutz ideology I could do bullet points on kibbutz motivation like this
- 1. redeem the Jewish nation through physical work
- 2. Improve the land of Palestine - i.e. "make the desert bloom."
- 3. pure communism.
- I'll do kibbutz ideology with headings like that if you think the ideology section isn't clear enough.Dinopup 17:31, 24 Feb 2005 (UTC)
- Good fixes so far. Some more observations for you then. 1) The two sentence paragraphs are often nearly as choppy as the one, same basic problem, but eliminating the one sentence ones is a good start. 2) The context in the 'Pioneers' section is way better, it just makes the section too long. See what can either be summarized or separated out as a distinct section if it makes sense. 3) The lead section still needs expanding, but maybe it would be better to improve that once you have the article as fleshed out as you think it can be/needs to be. Then when the article is reasonably stable, it may be easier to write the best summary of the subject. 4) Now there are a number of copyedits that need to be made, either from unfinished sentences or those that aren't very clear. Here are some examples: "and decided to take part in the (Silver-Brody, 33,36)..." What finishes that sentence? The sentence "If the settled Arabs were not violent, sabotage of irrigation canals or burning of fields occurred." has a lot of problems. What settled Arabs? who sabatoged the irrigation canals? Also POV concerns about that claim. 5) There is some POV that has crept in. Any statement that is not obviously true on the face of it could use citation to a good source. You have started along that path, just keep it up. Also the risk is that if you use all Jewish author sources (just my impression so far), you have nothing about what the other groups felt about it. Try to get some sources from or representing the Ottomans/Arabs/Muslims in the area and their characterization of the facts. 6) Finally the whole thing needs careful attention to cohesiveness. Similar topics are scattered in different places and claims in one section only partly support those in others. Hope that helps. - Taxman 18:40, Feb 24, 2005 (UTC)
- Taxman, thank you very much for your help. I have implemented many of your suggestions. I've added more of the Arab POV, I've expanded the Pioneers section, I've made copyedits. I might be making a few copy edits from here on out, but I think in terms of content we're good. It is difficult to isolate information in single sections -describing the history of the kibbutz movement, it's impossible not to talk about things that could be included in daily life and economics. If it appears that there are contradictions, that is probably the result of the age and diversity of the kibbutz movement itself. Kibbutzim were founded to be places of Jewish labor, now that kibbutzniks are less enthusiastic about labor, there are hired workers. Unless you have more advice (and your advice has been great), I'm going to let this stabilize, and then promote the article to FAC.Dinopup 02:32, 27 Feb 2005 (UTC)
- Good fixes so far. Some more observations for you then. 1) The two sentence paragraphs are often nearly as choppy as the one, same basic problem, but eliminating the one sentence ones is a good start. 2) The context in the 'Pioneers' section is way better, it just makes the section too long. See what can either be summarized or separated out as a distinct section if it makes sense. 3) The lead section still needs expanding, but maybe it would be better to improve that once you have the article as fleshed out as you think it can be/needs to be. Then when the article is reasonably stable, it may be easier to write the best summary of the subject. 4) Now there are a number of copyedits that need to be made, either from unfinished sentences or those that aren't very clear. Here are some examples: "and decided to take part in the (Silver-Brody, 33,36)..." What finishes that sentence? The sentence "If the settled Arabs were not violent, sabotage of irrigation canals or burning of fields occurred." has a lot of problems. What settled Arabs? who sabatoged the irrigation canals? Also POV concerns about that claim. 5) There is some POV that has crept in. Any statement that is not obviously true on the face of it could use citation to a good source. You have started along that path, just keep it up. Also the risk is that if you use all Jewish author sources (just my impression so far), you have nothing about what the other groups felt about it. Try to get some sources from or representing the Ottomans/Arabs/Muslims in the area and their characterization of the facts. 6) Finally the whole thing needs careful attention to cohesiveness. Similar topics are scattered in different places and claims in one section only partly support those in others. Hope that helps. - Taxman 18:40, Feb 24, 2005 (UTC)
- Per your suggestions I eliminated all the one sentence paragraphs and added information about the ideological background of the earliest kibbutzniks. I'm not 100% satisfied with the beginnings of the ideology section. I hate to do anything that isn't "prosical," but I'm thinking of explaining the kibbutz ideology with bullet points. Rather than have unheaded paragraphs explaining the Zionist kibbutz ideology I could do bullet points on kibbutz motivation like this