Talk:Tamazgha

Tamazgha is a recent Tamazight neologism'

Why do yoy think that ? what are you sources ?Aziri 11:17, 15 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Although the root MZGH is very ancient, Tamazgha as a country name is modern. It appeared for the first time in Algeria in the seventies. It is not clear at all who invented it. Some say it was Mouloud Mammeri (1917-1989). According to others, it was Kateb Yacine (1929-1989).

for the area more often known as the Maghreb or North Africa'

you don't think that Maghreb is not tamazgha ? is siwa in MAghrib but it is Tamazgha ? North africa . didn't you say it is too broed ?Aziri 11:17, 15 Jul 2004 (UTC)

covering the area between the Mediterranean Sea and the Niger River, from the west bank of the Nile river to the Atlantic Ocean. The main inhabited areas are northern Libya', Tunisia and the Atlas Mountains chain from Algeria to Southern Morocco.

and where are the guanches , the Negers ,The Egyptians , the MAlians and the Sinagalians ...?Aziri 11:17, 15 Jul 2004 (UTC)

It corresponds roughly to Herodotus' Libya, and to the medieval European term Barbary.

Do you think that the berber have not a name for their area ?~~

Where are they? In their own areas; it seems to have escaped you that neither the Wolof nor the Songhai nor the Egyptians nor the Fulani are Berber. And yes, I think that no Berber ever invented this term "Tamazgha" until this century. - Mustafaa 09:41, 24 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Regardless of whether Tamazgha is a modern or ancient term, it is the Amazigh term for our homeland and the only acceptable toponym for that region as all other toponyms are either derogatory such as Barbaria or inaccurate such as Al-Maghreb al-Arabi as we are neither barbaric not Arab. AbuYahyaAšǝlḥiy (talk) 03:00, 26 January 2020 (UTC)

¿Mazigia?

In Canary Islands is using the same term Tamazgha. Mazigia same "whit relation to tamazgha" (female). MZG same "amazigh".

Excuse me. I don`t speak english. --85.59.68.121 12:56, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

I removed this following statement:

term used by Canarian separatists' It is incorrect, i was i guanche-phora, and they didn't use that name, and you can see in this following site, they use the same word as the name used by the other berber activists: http://www.elguanche.net/tamazgha/ Read3r 20:35, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Arabic Script?

Why is the Arabic scipt needed in here? Should it be: تمازغا? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Josef.b (talk • contribs) 22:56, 24 June 2006

No idea why it was requested. I don't think this Tamazight word was "originally rendered in the Arabic script". --tyomitch 15:48, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Arabic is not needed here as the article is in English not Arabic. If the article was in Arabic then it would be needed so that Arabs can read it. I think تامازغا is the correct Arabic spelling not تمازغا as there are no short vowels in tifinagh. AbuYahyaAšǝlḥiy (talk) 02:55, 26 January 2020 (UTC)

I am editing it with the tifinagh instead at the request of some berbers in our chat room Equwal (talk) 15:44, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

if the term is actually an arabic term then both languages should be in the article, but I'm under the impression that it isn't an arabic term as well. Equwal (talk) 15:57, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

followup: yes it is an arabic term as well. Equwal (talk) 22:52, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

Polisaharawi Front

They defends in her Western Sahara (^^RASD**) their glorious past in the almoravid Empire that becames from W. Sahara and Mauritaia hassaniya and from Spain (Al-Andalus controls all the North West of Africa. Now very arabizated and recently no nomadism after spanish presence is only a concept of National Proud. Blue Power Touareg/Tuareg —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.25.121.159 (talk) 17:42, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

Merge Barbary Coast

The article Barbary Coast is discussing the same topic. These are just different names for the same locale. The two names could easily be discussed in one article. Proposing to just merge these.

-- MC — Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.131.2.3 (talk) 20:51, 13 December 2017 (UTC)

Oppose merge on the grounds that equivalence has not been referenced, and in addition that Barbary Coast is a more commonly recognized term in English and so would be the preferred name. Klbrain (talk) 22:03, 21 February 2019 (UTC)

Why is the racist and derogatory term Berber and any related term be it Barbary or Barbarian going to be replaced with correct terms like Amazigh, Imazighen, Tamazight, Tamazgha, etc. AbuYahyaAšǝlḥiy (talk) 02:52, 26 January 2020 (UTC)

Racism

When will people stop using the derogatory racial slur Berber and call us by our real name Amazigh (plural: Imazighen)? AbuYahyaAšǝlḥiy (talk) 02:50, 26 January 2020 (UTC)

The term "Amazighs" and "Berbers"

Hello!

Using the term "Berbers" to refer to the Amazigh people is often considered inappropriate due to its historical context, colonial legacy, and inaccuracy in representing the diverse cultures and identities within the Amazigh community.

The term "Berber" originated from outsiders and was imposed upon the indigenous peoples without their consent, carrying colonial and Orientalist connotations.

Advocates for the Amazigh community argue that using "Amazigh" respects their self-identification and heritage, reclaiming their identity from colonial influences and asserting their cultural autonomy.

Additionally, acknowledging the complicated history embedded in language and recognizing the ethical responsibility to refer to all ethnic groups by the names they choose to be called is crucial. By using terminology that aligns with the preferences and agency of the Amazigh people themselves, we contribute to a more inclusive and respectful discourse while affirming their dignity and cultural heritage. SaraWiki123 (talk) 06:25, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

Lo-level edit war

@Equwal and Skitash: Let's please discuss on talk and try to come to consensus please. ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 20:51, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

I'm okay with removing the image. Indeed, it isn't clear enough what Tamazgha is for any such map to be totally accurate.

If the first line of the article is "Tamazgha (LANG) is a fictitious entity and neologism in the Berber languages" then LANG should be Berber language...not Arabic. Equwal (talk) 21:00, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

I don't think the Arabic is relevant at all, so I removed it. If it was relevant, it could go in a footnote like how the berber was in a footnote. Equwal (talk) 21:01, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

It's not about what you think, it's about you can prove using WP:RS, so here's your chance to prove that you have a point. In the meantime, I moved everything to the footnote. M.Bitton (talk) 21:07, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

could say the same about marginalizing the tifinagh and latin scripts Equwal (talk) 21:43, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

I'm more than happy to discuss the issue. I have already warned the user about injecting original research into the article. Moreover, @Equwal I am puzzled as to why you continue to delete the Arabic text (the only verifiable native name there). The Tamazight transcriptions are placed in footnotes for a reason. Apart from the fact that the added text is WP:OR (unsourced and unverifiable), Tamazight isn't a single standardized language. Skitash (talk) 21:08, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

The trouble with those who insist on marginalizing the Arabic script is that they don't even realize that they're doing their very cause a disfavour. M.Bitton (talk) 21:13, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

I'm separating the discussion about the image and the language text. I'm interested in discussing the language text, which is not "original research" unless consulting a dictionary is original.

Many languages are not single or standardized. That doesn't mean that we should use Arabic translations of terms for words in Serbo-Croatian on Wikipedia, for example. Instead, a term should be used that is reasonably central, or in this case, the source of the English borrowing for the word Tamazgha.

https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tamazgha

French article does it this way. Equwal (talk) 21:16, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

If you're suggesting that we should use French Wikipedia as a source, then I'd like to bring your attention to WP:CIRC. Skitash (talk) 21:20, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

that's not what I intend to do and I'm sure you are aware of that. Equwal (talk) 21:22, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

The French wiki article has two alerts plastered on it, including a massive red one about original research. Please tell me that you haven't wasted our time over some irrelevant WP:OR that you read on some random wiki project. M.Bitton (talk) 21:22, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

Okay, it seems that the WP:OR complaint applies to the word Tamazgha itself. Here is my source, it is a peer reviewed journal. Tamazgha studies journal

https://www.tamazghastudiesjournal.org

Cheers. Equwal (talk) 21:56, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

"Peer reviewed" means nothing unless a journal is reviewed by third party scholars (which I don't see). What exactly are we to do with that source? M.Bitton (talk) 22:06, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

Use it's name as a source for the term Tamazgha since it is not easily found in dictionaries, because it is a neologism. Equwal (talk) 22:13, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

The organization is substantial and does exist, and is a use of the word tamazgha shown in various scripts in their logo Equwal (talk) 22:14, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

We'll need for than your word for it, because I know for a fact that those who invented the concept use French (not English). M.Bitton (talk) 22:16, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

Here is their about page in all scripts including their name.

https://www.tamazghastudiesjournal.org/about Equwal (talk) 22:19, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

Good for them for promoting themselves. M.Bitton (talk) 22:19, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

Here is the page on the etymological falacy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etymological_fallacy

The inventors of the term do not retain ownership of it. Equwal (talk) 22:20, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

What are you talking about? The most famous Berberologists are all based in France, that's a fact. M.Bitton (talk) 22:24, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

what do you mean by this:

We'll need for than your word for it, because I know for a fact that those who invented the concept use French (not English).

? Equwal (talk) 22:29, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

I mean exactly what I wrote. What makes you think that non Berber studies specialists are reliable? M.Bitton (talk) 22:32, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

These are berber studies specialists in america.

New link:

https://www.tamazgha.org/about/

"Our Mission: Preserve, protect and promote Tamazight and the Amazigh culture in Tamazgha,..."

The word Tamazgha is in use to talk about the region where berber peoples live. Equwal (talk) 22:39, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

Where on the website you linked does it refer to the name in Tifinagh transcription? Skitash (talk) 22:50, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

it doesn't, but it does use the term in English, which is relevant to the question of "is this term in use" Equwal (talk) 22:54, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

see the other site for use in all scripts Equwal (talk) 22:54, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

That makes no sense. This discussion is about the verifiability of Tifinagh text. Skitash (talk) 22:56, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

The first link I gave has the following editorial board:

Editorial Board

Abdellah El Haloui, Cadi Ayyad University, Morocco

Ali Alalou, University of Delaware, USA

Edwige Tamalet Talbayev, Tulane University, USA

Fiona McLaughlin, University of Florida, USA

Gonzalo Fernández Parrilla, Universidad Autónoma de Madrid, Spain

Hassan Ould Mokhtar, City University London, UK

Hassane Oudadene, Ibn Zohr University, Morocco

Hisham Aidi, Columbia University, USA

Jane Goodman, Indiana University, USA

Katherine Hoffmann, Northwestern University, USA

Lameen Souag, CNRS, France

Leila Tayeb, NYU Abu Dhabi, UAE

Lynda Chouiten, University of Boumerdes

Nabil Boudraa, Oregon State University, USA

Neila Saadi, University of Tunis, USA

Paraska Tolan, Cornell University, USA

Paul Silverstein, Reed College, USA

Samia Henni, Cornell University, USA

Zakia Salime, Rutgers University, USA

On what basis is this not considered a reliable source? Equwal (talk) 23:05, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

Who is the Berberologist amongst them? M.Bitton (talk) 23:07, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

It's a berberologist journal. That would make them all berberologists if they are on the board to such a journal. Equwal (talk) 23:09, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

No, that's not how it works. Either they are Berberologists or they are not, if they are, then it shouldn't be difficult to prove. The reason I ask is simply because such sources tend to be abused. M.Bitton (talk) 23:10, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

what is the test that makes someone a "berberologist" in your view 68.1.207.26 (talk) 23:19, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

Reliable sources describing them as such. M.Bitton (talk) 23:23, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

https://irmcmaghreb.org/team-details/neila-saadi-2/

this person's profile claims to be a berberologist. "... des politiques patrimoniales en Tunisie de l’époque coloniale à l’indépendance en s’appuyant sur l’exemple de l’héritage berbère de Tunisie." 68.1.207.26 (talk) 23:21, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

Nope, it certainly doesn't. M.Bitton (talk) 23:23, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

it says it yes Equwal (talk) 23:26, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

When people start making up things that don't exist, it's usually a good sign that it's time to call it a day. M.Bitton (talk) 23:29, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

For the image, I found a similar image on Wikipedia that is 12 years old. I suppose I can use this?

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Tamazight.jpg Equwal (talk) 21:21, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

Not in a million years. M.Bitton (talk) 21:22, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

What part of WP:NOR do you not understand? Skitash (talk) 21:23, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 2 August 2024

Tamazgha is fictitious entity should be changed to a conceptual entity. Jamalos1 (talk) 17:28, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. M.Bitton (talk) 17:34, 2 August 2024 (UTC)