Talk:Hecate

Regarding the "Nature of Her Cult" section

This section seems blatantly written by someone with an agenda. The use of "Her" with a capital H and so on makes it look quite un-encyclopedic. Or am I wrong? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.164.153.220 (talk) 12:32, 8 July 2012 (UTC)

Very messy article!

This article confuses two views of Hecate, intermixing them without putting them in the proper historical context. The first is the Hecate from Greco-Roman religion and classical Greco-roman mythology and the second "Hekater-Soteroi" is the Hekate from the Chaldean Oracles, which were a set of texts from the II and III century AD and were heavily influenced by Gnostic thought. The way that the Greek and Romans view Hekate was quite different than the way the writers of the Chaldean Oracles (probably a gnostic sect0 viewed her. This distinction should be clearly made. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.62.15.69 (talk) 21:39, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

Assertion of metrical necessity

One version suggested earlier (above) had:

Arthur Golding's 1567 translation of Ovid's Metamorphoses refers to "triple Hecat" (/'hɛk-ət/), and this spelling without the final E later appears in Ben Jonson's play The Sad Shepherd, Christopher Marlowe's play Doctor Faustus, William Shakespeare's plays A Midsummer Night's Dream and Macbeth, and John Milton's play Comus,* perhaps to fit the verse metres.
[* Milton, John (1634). Comus, Act I, Scene 1, line 135: "Wherein thou rid'st with Hecat".]

One objection to that was "speculation", which is why the underlined portion no longer appears. However, now that same assertion is being made as grounds to delete Milton from the footnote. If it's speculation to mention it in-text, it's speculation to delete on that basis, and in any case it doesn't follow from "metrical necessity" that the example of that usage should therefore be deleted — as the usage in prose has also been documented by Webster and Brewer. — Sizzle Flambé (☎/✍) 21:41, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

They aren't equivalent. Wikipedia policy as set out in WP:RS and WP:NPOV means that we should present evidence as set out in the majority of reliable sources. In particular WP:Weight says that we should reflect disagreements between expert sources according to the balance of the evidence. It also says that we should give a particular aspect of an issue the balance that it deserves. If we mention the spelling of Hecate's name in Milton's Comus, then we would have to mention that there are three different spellings that we've identified in reliable sources, going into this level of detail about how one poet spelled the name would give the issue undue weight in what is an article covering all aspects of the goddess in quesiton.--Peter Cohen (talk) 23:39, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

Utterly false historical revisionism

To say that Hecate "... was a popular chthonian Greco-Roman goddess associated later on by modern day neopagans with magic, witches, ghosts, and crossroads" suggests that she did not have these associations before the modern day.

Yet going on, we see that "she has been associated with ... crossroads, magic, lunar lore"; "associated with ghosts, infernal spirits, the dead and sorcery"; "closely associated with sorcery"; "in Sophocles and Euripides she is characterized as the mistress of witchcraft"; called "Triodia/Trioditis (who frequents crossroads)"; "Cult images and altars of Hecate in her triplicate or trimorphic form were placed at crossroads.... In this form, she came to be known as the goddess Trivia 'the three ways' in Roman mythology."

So the interpolation "later on by modern day neopagans" was already shown in the article to be false. The specified association long predates the modern day neopagans, and if they carry it on it is merely as a continuation of far older traditions. — Sizzle Flambé (☎/✍) 07:24, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

I completely agree. This article also states (basically) that her ancient statuary depicting three faces should not be associated with the tripartite Goddess, and this flagrantly ridiculous and completely idiotic. That is what the three faces of Hecate (et cetera) mean (that is all they mean!) ~ the three phases of the Moon, or Goddess, and the three stages of womanhood ~ youth, motherhood, and maturity -- the Maiden, the Mother, and the Wysen'd Olde Crone, as we call them in the Craft. Just because the writer doesn't understand the allegory, does not mean that the association is invalid it, in fact, an ancient association (the most ancient?). The statement should be removed, and I have done so. Glorious Goddess (talk) 03:07, 18 August 2012 (UTC)

Removed accordingly. — Sizzle Flambé (☎/✍) 07:33, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

Hecate is NOT a crone. Hecate is the 'saffron-clad Maiden'. She's a maiden, not a crone. The crone thing is an (absurd) modern construct. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.16.230.30 (talk) 21:00, 14 December 2012 (UTC)

Lilith

I was doing some source research for Lilith and one mentioned her as an aspect of Hecate. Anyone who maintains reliable sources for this article has an opinion on this? Is this a modern feminist connection with no archaeological backing? Is it a notable feminist or neopagan view? Alatari (talk) 10:41, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

I left the list of sources on the Talk:Lilith page. Alatari (talk) 10:42, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

Modern feminist revisionist stuff.

Xuchilbara (talk) 03:12, 30 March 2016 (UTC) Xuchilbara (talk) 03:12, 30 March 2016 (UTC)

When editing this page

This is a 'living' deity. She is still worshiped by a significant number of people and so that is a consideration when editing this article. This means her mythology is evolving and not fixed in time. This is born out by the talk page arguments which have been an interesting read. Alatari (talk) 08:33, 24 April 2010 (UTC)

Hecate is not a 'living' deity. The 'official' worship of the goddess died out with the coming of Christianity. However, before the arrival of Christianity Hecate had evolved into a 'boogey-man' type of entity associated with evil and death. The modern 'worship' of Hecate by Wiccans and Neopagans has absolutely nothing in common with her traditional worship or native religion.BoyintheMachine (talk) 04:40, 11 November 2012 (UTC)

Hekate is a living deity. There is modern worship of Hekate by Hellenic polytheists, in the Americas and in Greece, Russia, and elsewhere, that is based on the traditional worship in ancient Greece. Hellenion is a 501c3 church with groups in the USA and Canada that has reconstructed and revived the practices of (mainly) Athenian Greek indigenous worship. http://hellenion.org/ The Supreme Council of Ethnikoi Hellenes is an umbrella group in Greece representing several religious groups that practice the indigenous religion of Greece. http://www.ysee.gr/index-eng.php And the publisher Neos Alexandria published a devotional book called Bearing Torches: A Devotional Anthology for Hekate in 2009. http://neosalexandria.org/bibliotheca-alexandrina/current-titles/bearing-torches-a-devotional-anthology-for-hekate/ CaraSchulz (talk) 14:58, 28 November 2012 (UTC)

Designation of years

All the years in the article that are meant to be BCE should really be marked with the letters "BCE," since Wikipedia is addressed to a popular audience. We can't expect most people to be familiar with the convention of omitting BCE when a discussion is dealing only with or primarily with BCE dates. 173.3.104.225 (talk) 13:18, 27 June 2010 (UTC)Swan

Parents

The article say "Hesiod records that she was esteemed as the offspring of Gaia and Uranus, the Earth and Sky" while also saying "Hesiod emphasizes that Hecate was an only child, the daughter of Perses and Asteria." Could someone familiar with mythology please clear that up? Peter.C • talk 13:32, 4 February 2011 (UTC)

Consort and children internal contradiction

The infobox lists Aeëtes as her consort and Aegialeus, Absyrtus, Medea, Circe and Chalciope as her children. All that is said on the subject in the article, however, is, "As a virgin goddess, she remained unmarried and had no regular consort, though some traditions named her as the mother of Scylla." Aeëtes's page does note that some sources claim him to be her husband, and Circe's page notes that some sources claim her to be Hecate's daughter, but the pages of the other children listed do not mention her at all. 99.20.100.18 (talk) 23:37, 29 November 2011 (UTC)

Move To Delete The Following Sections

-Modern Festivals -Survival In Pre-Modern Folklore -Cross-Cultural Parallels -Nature of Her Cult

Modern Festivals and Survival in Pre-Modern Folklore should be deleted due to them being based in Neo-Pagan propaganda. I don't know why all the Wiccans and Neopagans always want to take over these wiki pages but they need to stop. Survival in Pre-Modern Folklore is also fringe. Cross-Cultural Parallels needs to be deleted as this is an encyclopedia entry on Hecate and not a place to espouse unnecessary religious or philosophical debates. The section on the nature of her cult as it is too simplistic.BoyintheMachine (talk) 04:47, 11 November 2012 (UTC)

If persons in present-day worship a God or other deity and can prove this is happening, this is not propaganda and is germane to the article on the deity.CaraSchulz (talk) 15:02, 28 November 2012 (UTC)

Remove reference to Ruickbie under The Deipnon

Leo Ruickbie's "Witchcraft out of the Shadows" (2004) is loosely cited in this section that " Greeks observed two days sacred to Hecate, one on the 13th of August and one on the 30th of November, whilst the Romans observed the 29th of every month as her sacred day." Ruickbie cites as his source Diane Stein's "The Goddess Book of Days" (Llewellyn, 1997). Her original calendar was published in 1988 and does not give a primary source. So what we have, really, is no source.

The Attic Festival Calendar, which is cited, shows there was no months of August or November in Greece and the Greeks used a lunal - not solar - calendar. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attic_calendar#Festival_calendar

Also, there is never any mention as to why Hecate would be called to protect crops. According to Brumfield in his book The Attic festivals of Demeter and their Relation to the Agricultural Year (1976), during the time of the year we call August, the grain harvest had been completed and the grape harvest would not have begun until September. August was a lull in the agricultural year and nothing needed to be protected from violent storms.

So the bottom two paragraphs should be removed from The Deipnon section as it misrepresents these dates as an ancient festival or celebration. They could be added to the neo-Pagan section as part of that evolving religion. CaraSchulz (talk) 19:09, 26 August 2014 (UTC)CaraSchulz

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William Berg article severely misquoted

In the intro, the statement 'William Berg observes, "Since children are not called after spooks, it is safe to assume that Carian theophoric names involving hekat- refer to a major deity-free from the dark and unsavory ties to the underworld and to witchcraft associated with the Hecate of classical Athens."' is used to support the idea that Hecate did not originate in Greece, but this is not his argument at all. His article actually argues that she is, in fact, a native deity. In fact, the quote that is attributed to William Berg here is not even said by him, he is paraphrasing the argument of another scholar. 72.220.105.74 (talk) 11:08, 20 December 2015 (UTC)

Barbara G. Walker

Why is she a source? She is a feminist revisionist, who would either cite sources that were not backed up in what she cited or non-existent altogether. She basically made a lot of it up.

Take for example her passages about Lilith being an ancient goddess whose devotees gave us fingernail polish; there is nothing to substantiate these claims. Lilith was never an ancient goddess and her devotees certainly never gave us fingernail polish. This is stuff Walker pretty much, made up. Xuchilbara (talk) 03:19, 30 March 2016 (UTC)

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Inconsistency with page on Trivia

As a forward, I will not claim expertise on this issue, which is why I put this here instead of making any change to the pages in question, though I will go so far as to say that what I was taught agrees with the Trivia article.

The article on Trivia explicitly states that the connection between Hecate and Trivia is a popular misconception, citing Kravitz. Amusingly, the mouseover text for that entry in the infobox actually stops one word short of stating this. Whichever is correct, the other should be fixed and a citation added to the Hecate article to authoritatively contradict Kravitz. MKeenanEditor (talk) 19:09, 21 May 2018 (UTC)MKeenaneditor

It appears that Trivia is primarily an epithet of Diana, so Hecate is associated with it via her longstanding syncretism with that goddess in the Roman world. I've edited the article a bit to reflect this and re-directed Trivia (mythology) (which was basically two sentences) to Diana (mythology) (which currently has a lot more info on Diana Trivia). Dinoguy2 (talk) 19:17, 24 November 2018 (UTC)

Heka, Ancient Egyptian God Of Magic

The similarity in the name is obvious - as is the connection to the words heks or hexing. According to Herodotus, all the names of the Gods came from Egypt.

"Heka is the god of magic and medicine in ancient Egypt and is also the personification of magic itself. He is probably the most important god in Egyptian mythology but is often overlooked because his presence was so pervasive as to make him almost invisible to the Egyptologists of the 19th and 20th centuries CE." World History Encyclopedia, Heka, by Joshua J. Markby. 2001:1C00:1E31:5F00:EC85:A9C4:4D6C:B971 (talk) 19:16, 22 June 2021 (UTC)

Hecate in popular culture

I noticed this recent edit of yours. This is a pretty decent summary of references to Hecate in popular culture -- some of the works are pretty significant and her role varies from minor allusion to major character. The post itself is not citable, but what are your thoughts on including a section with some of her more significant appearances? It seems to me several fall within WP:IPC guidelines. I enjoy sandwiches (talk) 18:55, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

@I enjoy sandwiches: This query is best asked on the article talk page. - FlightTime Phone (open channel) 19:02, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

I will move the discussion there. I enjoy sandwiches (talk) 19:14, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

You sent me a thanks for moving the discussion here from your talk page, but did not respond to my actual question, which was addressed to you because you reverted my edit as linked above. To reiterate: there should be a section in this article discussing more notable appearances of Hecate in popular culture that fit into WP:IPC with objective third party references. I enjoy sandwiches (talk) 17:39, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

Byzantium

Why is the material on Hekate in relation to Byzantium not presented here? It's literally in the Byzantium page. I will include it, if someone wants to reject it formally then let them do so. FourLights (talk) 02:57, 17 November 2021 (UTC)

Strange citation

The information that Hecate was depicted as the mother of both Circe and Medea is cited to "Grimal; Smith". But no such source is listed or mentioned elsewhere. Also no page is given. Should this be removed? Dimadick (talk) 16:10, 26 May 2022 (UTC)

"blood-eating goddess Hecate"

This is mentioned by Parker in the article but I feel like it needs some expansion, was this a commonly attributed behaviour for the godess and if so what religious meaning did it hold? ★Trekker (talk) 02:43, 7 February 2023 (UTC)

Hecate was associated with ghosts. And there was a long-standing belief in ancient Greece that the ghosts were drinking blood. In the Nekyia section of the Odyssey, the shades of the Underworld drink blood. See this translation in Wikisource:

• • "I cut the throats of the two sheep and let the blood run into the trench, whereon the ghosts came trooping up from Erebus—brides, young bachelors, old men worn out with toil, maids who had been crossed in love, and brave men who had been killed in battle, with their armour still smirched with blood; they came from every quarter and flitted round the trench with a strange kind of screaming sound that made me turn pale with fear. When I saw them coming I told the men to be quick and flay the carcasses of the two dead sheep and make burnt offerings of them, and at the same time to repeat prayers to Hades and to Proserpine; but I sat where I was with my sword drawn and would not let the poor feckless ghosts come near the blood till Teiresias should have answered my questions."
  • ""Then came also the ghost of Theban Teiresias, with his golden sceptre in his hand. He knew me and said, 'Ulysses, noble son of Laertes, why, poor man, have you left the light of day and come down to visit the dead in this sad place? Stand back from the trench and withdraw your sword that I may drink of the blood and answer your questions truly.'"
• By the way, Trekker, how old are you? When I was 11-year-old, analyzing the Nekyia section was a mandatory school subject, and I had spend months analyzing the blood-drinking and its implication in necromancy. Dimadick (talk) 22:29, 7 February 2023 (UTC)
  • @Dimadick: I'm 26, but I don't think thats relevant, studying ancient history is historically not a major subject in Swedish schools (because Sweden has no ancient history so we focus much more on the Viking pagan period and the later Christianization). I'n quite jealous of you, I would have loved to study the Nekyia as a child.★Trekker (talk) 07:45, 8 February 2023 (UTC)

Pronunciation

Currently the lead has a note on how to pronounce her name. This is a very poor choice, imho. Her name's pronunciation is not self-evident. The pronunciation SHOULD BE EXPLICITLY GIVEN - as is usual for most uncommon words, especially those with a pronunciation that isn't what the average English language speaker would expect. (I was surprised it wasn't Hek ate or He ka tee.) Put the pronunciation in the lead, not in a note.98.21.213.85 (talk) 19:44, 16 January 2024 (UTC)